Much has been said about 9/11. Year after year the world over, this day is mourned. Because 5000 people died. Yes they didnt deserve to die. What happened should never have happened. But then as a consequence, millions elsewhere have died. Well life seems to be much cheaper everywhere else. I mourn 9/11 for the millions dead. In The Hindu, there were some really good articles on this occasion.
9/11: five years later - A reflective article on the pros and cons of 9/11.
The other 9/11 - This one pointed out the other significances of 9/11 - Gandhiji's Satyagraha, Swami Vivekananda's address in Chicago..
Hands off Lebanon - "It has to be realised that wars are not a deterrent to terrorism..."
A good article on the current state of affairs in that country.
No wonder I love The Hindu. :-)
15 comments:
there have been more deaths outside US after 9/11. No one mourns for them huh? US is good because people who died were rich and US citizens and others are bad because they were poor and not US citizens
"It has to be realized that wars are not a deterrent to terrorism..."
Then what exactly should be done to fight terrorism?
Sit down hoping that some day they would run out of bombs???
There has been a lot of Lebanon support in the muslim community. and this is just a PR victory for Lebanon.
Lebanon is just another Pakistan, on the face of it, it is supporting the peace process and behind the scenes the same leadership is backing hizbollah. In your blogs nobody is asking about why the Lebanese leadership wasn't able to get rid of hizbollah in south. why did they allow it to conduct their terrorist activities on their land.
I really admire Israel and US for the way they can take a stand for their people, something that India hasn't been able to do.
PS: I know you people have been reading "Beirut burning" and blogs like that. Problem is these blogs are only showing human tragedy and trying to garner sympathy, and I guess that’s the easiest thing to do. It’s just about which side of story you focus upon.
The Bombay bombers may have seen Gujarat riots, seen sisters getting raped and brothers getting killed. Focus on this story alone and all our sympathy would be with them.
Now, look at the bigger picture where the same guy blew up 200 people, what would you say now?
@shikari
So do you think your viewpoint takes everything into considerations everything? u just look one side of the story. Why do u neglect the atrocities by Israel on Palestine, which has been going on for decades? They killed so many innocent people in Lebanon and Palestine recently..the whole world condemned it. Ok thats not the point..even if the world wouldn't have supported Lebanon then also it would have been crime against humanity. Why shouldn't we read blogs about Beirut burning? so we should only read diaries of people killed in terrorist activities because its the right of US or Israel to bomb the whole country uh? they committed crime against humanity and this is what breeds future terrorists. Be abundantly clear about one thing, i am not justifying terrorism or its motive. I am against terrorism and also against barbaric activities of US & Israel.
Unka khoon, khoon aur palestiniano ka khoon paan! hey kaha ka hisaab hai
@shikari:
Then what exactly should be done to fight terrorism?
Sit down hoping that some day they would run out of bombs???
Absolutely not. With the kind of terrorist events being referred to here, a political solution is a must. the reason behind the grievance of a whole population needs to be investigated, and policies that mercilessly clamp down and deny the right of people to live and exist need to be rescinded. (and no, this is not to justify terrorism. killing innocent people who have nothing to do with the oppression is NOT a valid way of expressing anger. all i'm saying is that the solution to combating and preventing needs to be as above.)
In your blogs nobody is asking about why the Lebanese leadership wasn't able to get rid of hizbollah in south. why did they allow it to conduct their terrorist activities on their land.
suppose for a moment that blogs are divided into 'ours' and 'yours' (i object to this because i prefer to believe that this is issue-based, and not blindly on the fact that one belongs to the same community).
do 'your' blogs comment on the near-daily incursions of israel into gaza and lebanon and 'detaining' (note, not kidnapping) hundreds and thousands of civilians? do they comment on the daily sonic booms and regular harassment of palestinians? do they comment on the hellhole open-air prison they've turned gaza into with their roadblocks and settlements? do they comment on the extreme hunger crisis there?
i do agree with you that 'our' blogs are not perfect, and that they don't look at all sides of the issue and are biased in favor of only looking at the atrocities of one side. but this is because of magnitude and intent. does one's sympathy lie more with 200 (150 soldiers+50 civilians) deaths or the revenge killing of 1000 civilians and a couple hundred guerillas fighting in self-defense? israel bombed out their whole existence!! does one's sympathy tend more toward 3000 civilians and a government on the rampage or tens of thousands of civilians in 'collateral damage' and 'birth pangs'? again, i'm not belittling any deaths. i'm no hypocrite, i feel for ANY civilian who needlessly pays for a political conflict.
I really admire Israel and US for the way they can take a stand for their people, something that India hasn't been able to do.
Really? You admire countries for taking a stand for their people (in whatever way you think it's being done) by bombing a whole another people and their infrastructure? Are they inferior and expendable? You admire governments for bombing two countries based on no evidence? You admire governments for systematic bombing of countries wiping out entire neighborhoods and destroying power stations and supply chains and basically life? a measured response is one thing, but state terrorism is another.
Now, look at the bigger picture where the same guy blew up 200 people, what would you say now?
I said it when the riots happened, and I'll say it now: killing ANY civilians for something they are not responsible for is a human crime. having even the littlest sympathy for ANYONE who does this is a sign of misguidance, whether it be the israeli 'defence' forces, the hezbollah guerillas, or whoever did the bombay blasts closer to home.
does one's sympathy tend more toward 3000 civilians and a government on the rampage or tens of thousands of civilians in 'collateral damage' and 'birth pangs'?
Just to prevent you from getting the wrong picture, i meant this as a question of immediacy. please change the word 'more' above with 'first' so that it reads
"does one's sympathy tend first toward 3000 civilians and a government on the rampage or tens of thousands of civilians in 'collateral damage' and 'birth pangs'?"
we write blogs like this... magazines have articles commemorating these events...
But wars still go on... terrorism still exists. Feels like we are all hitting our heads on a stone wall. our head breaks...there is no damage to the wall.sigh!
@sanjana,
To break the wall, first, i guess, we should
understand what is the wall made of!!
The terrorism-wall is made out of extreme
beliefs (religious funamentalism in the
case of Taliban, Hezbollah) and the warmonger's
wall is made of greed (like the USA).
The ouster of Bush and a new govt might change
the stand of the USA (not necessarily though),
but i don't know what can change things with countries
like Pak, Lebanon etc... They will continue churning
out terrorists, because the kids there grow up
learning intolerence against every other faith
in their "religious" schools (even musharaff had
to ban madrasahs!). If you notice, there
are hardly any good universities or any civilized
educational institutions in those countries!
The terrorism will go on until we "educate" them!
(not just school education; but the education
to respect others opinion and beleifs)
@Tamanna
I am not a big fan of The Hindu !
They have some people writing good
articles, thanks to their centuary
old legacy. But the current editorial
group (N Ram and group) are hard-core
communists and they often do very perverted
journalism! They never publish
anything against China. I have numerous
examples. Recently when China forced
google not to list any website against
the communists, in their search results,
the Hindu kept quiet. They didn't even
report the news. Every other newspaper
in India and elsewhere condemned it!
The Hindu wrote editorials against Abdul
Kalam when he stood for the post of the
president! Just becaue communists were
against him (Even congress supported
Kalam). So is in the office of profit
bill! In Kerala, communist govt
changed history text books to fit
their theory and every newspaper critisized
but the Hindu kept mum! They whitewash all communist vandalism and often twist the news to favor them! If you read frontline, it would sound like the
mouthpiece of the communist party! Shame on them!
You know I have never thought of issues from a communism angle. Maybe people in Bengal and Kerala are more sensitive to it than us maybe cos we dont face it directly. Yeah like u said ranjith, I dint know of these issues until u mentioned it. And yes maybe Hindu is at fault for not highlighting them. But among the current crop of papers that we get, I have found Hindu's reporting more professional.
I guess its also based on our own perceptions. Like I tried reading Dominique Lapierre's O Jerusalem but I couldnt get past ~100 pages. I disliked it.
Intolerance was not born in a day and ppl were not intolerant to others always. People were peace lovers in those war ravaged countries once upon a time.. There is always a reaction to any action rt!
(Mind you im not talking abt Pak. That has always been a mischief maker)
This is a vicious circle and I feel from here on there wont be any peace. Maybe this is how the world was before the 1st and 2nd world wars. Mistrust, invasions, discontent...
non equilibrium situation. wat say!!
@ansari @sharique
okay... lets talk about it point by point
"With the kind of terrorist events being referred to here, a political solution is a must."
You realize you are talking about incentivising(spelling??) terrorism. and whats next??? have pension schemes for them???
the grievance of a whole population needs to be investigated
Are you saying that the terrorists represent the "grievance of a whole population". I seriously doubt it. Don't you think that the basic premise of our democracy is that every single section of society gets represented. Surely if there is a such "grievance of a whole population", it can be addressed thru democratic institutions.
i object to this because i prefer to believe that this is issue-based, and not blindly on the fact that one belongs to the same community
Issue based yes, but don't you think it’s almost become mandatory for a Muslim anywhere in the world to be anti-Israel. I haven’t come across a single Muslim who is okay with Israel, have you put in some issue based thought on that.
I know you would be talking about "atrocities" and "oppression" by Israel, will get to that....
does one's sympathy lie more with 200 (150 soldiers+50 civilians) deaths or the revenge killing of 1000 civilians and a couple hundred guerillas fighting in self-defense?
Dude, lets get one thing clear, life and death is never going to be such a simple equation like "we killed 200 of yours, now you can take 200 of yours".
As I see it, it has to be cause and effect, and the responsibility of effect lies with the person whose actions caused the aggression in the first place. If hizbollah fires rockets on civilians, there is token condemnation and its forgotten. If Israel makes an air raid to pro-actively destroy the enemy, it causes worldwide uproar with everybody up in arms against them. Now what is Israel supposed to do here?
Just think about it with a cool head for a minute, say you are prime minister of a country whose people have come out of a world war that has left its scars, they have seen the worst suffering known to human race in those camps. Now, they are facing attacks by these militants. Being a democracy won't such a populance pressure you into being decisive while handling these terrorists. Would they be willing to bleed to death in silence.
(btw... as I understand, destroying Israel is almost a stated goal of all countries around it)
Really? You admire countries for taking a stand for their people
Yes, and nothing you said has made me think otherwise. See the basic job of government is to be answerable to its people. First expectation that any citizen would have from his govt is that it would provide him a safe environment. If the actions that you mentioned are within its means and can answer those aspirations of people then I am all for it. World Peace should be(and always is) secondary to national interests.
killing ANY civilians for something they are not responsible for is a human crime
we almost agree about this point, I must add that even killing of defence personal in terrorist attacks is not acceptable to me
Now, getting back to "atrocities and oppression by Israel", don't you think these words reek of propaganda. Something that you'd just like everyone to believe without asking any questions. My guess is that your impressions of these A&O are 10'th hand at best.
And, if you are talking about civilian deaths, they are inevitable in war.
You realize you are talking about incentivising(spelling??) terrorism. and whats next??? have pension schemes for them???
Na..am not trying to say that this is a legitimate outlet for political frustration. These activities should be pursued as a crime and all those involved need to be punished to the max. I was just saying that the road onward from here (from the point where such things have already happened) needs to take into account the "why" and not exacerbate the situation by ignoring the root cause behind the growth of such criminals. It might be distasteful, but it's the least damage way out.
Surely if there is a such "grievance of a whole population", it can be addressed thru democratic institutions.
I'm with you here..like I said above, choosing to voice grievances thru terrorist attacks is illegal and criminal (and strictly prohibited by the religion they claim to profess).
Dude, lets get one thing clear, life and death is never going to be such a simple equation like "we killed 200 of yours, now you can take 200 of yours".
I know it's not .. and I don't see where I insinuated that :-/
In fact in my opinion that's the thumb rule Israel seems to follow, except that they seem to use a random multiplier each time.
I never tried to justify killing people in revenge. I was trying to present to you why "our" blogs have such opinions..it's because they're looking at the bigger picture. Numbers may not matter, but when it's a planned, sustained (5 years now?), thought-out strategy that is STILL wantonly killing hundreds of people, on top of the original aggression, one has to think about such things.
As I see it, it has to be cause and effect, and the responsibility of effect lies with the person whose actions caused the aggression in the first place.
We can argue over this..and all arguments will come down to this point. From what I consider, Israel is the first aggressor. Both long-term and short-term (multiple times). You may disagree; that's perfectly fine. I can only ask you to dig a little deeper than easy media handouts.
say you are prime minister of a country whose people have come out of a world war that has left its scars, they have seen the worst suffering known to human race in those camps.
I'm with you here...this was a horrific incident that is a blot on humanity.
But I fail to see how this concerns the current situation. Past history doesn't change what's right and wrong..it doesn't legitimize certain things. It certainly doesn't mean that another people should pay for Hitler's megalomania!
Now, they are facing attacks by these militants.
Now they are _perpetrating_ the _same_ atrocities their ancestors faced on another hapless people!
By the way..and have you thought about it .. why do the Palestinian people have to give up their land because this people suffered in Germany? This isn't the place to go on about this..but for a history of the whole thing, please check out http://www.ifamericansknew.org/history/origin.html
Before you accuse me (in fact you already have) of reading only biased media and basing my opinions on only that, I want to say that I try and be very careful about the sources of what I read. If there is something that is unsubstantiated by mainstream media or common sense, I discount it. Others may not be, but I am extremely particular about this. The above link is in fact a group of Jews in America. It's not "our" site.
World Peace should be(and always is) secondary to national interests.
And there I disagree again. I think a nation and a people should stand for justice and not self-interest. This is what Islam has to say. Being just is primary, even above your own interests, your family's, friends, nation, etc.
we almost agree about this point, I must add that even killing of defence personal in terrorist attacks is not acceptable to me
In principle, I agree too. The disagreement comes over what is a terrorist attack and what isn't. I consider as terrorism what you consider to be terrorism. I also consider the US invasion of Afghanistan and Iraq terrorist attacks. I also consider the Israeli aggression of Palestine and Lebanon terrorist attacks.
don't you think these words reek of propaganda.
I could ask you the same thing..your arguments about a people suffering, and then "self-defense", etc. I would call that propaganda. I try to look at both sides of the picture. There's crap on both sides. Investigate further, think about intentions, think about what's going on and who's suffering, what is malicious, and then make your conclusions.
Something that you'd just like everyone to believe without asking any questions.
Like I said above, I steer clear of media reports that are sketchy on facts and don't offer evidence and are not mainstream media. Might sound unlikely to you, and you may know of other Muslims who aren't as careful about this and read stuff they want to believe. True..lots of Muslims are like that..it's sad, and your crib is valid.
My guess is that your impressions of these A&O are 10'th hand at best.
Your guess is wrong.
As a minor example, check this out:
www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/761781.html
(This is an Israeli newspaper. Before you begin on your "bias" charges again)
I'm not too sure the owner of this blog is very happy about this :) so if you want to take this offline, you're welcome to do so.
more media:
(cluster bombs) http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2006/08/20/wmid320.xml
(UN official horrified at extent of unrestrained pounding of lebanon) http://today.reuters.co.uk/news/articlenews.aspx?type=topNews&storyID=2006-07-23T094600Z_01_L23862127_RTRUKOC_0_UK-MIDEAST-EGELAND.xml
(wounds never seen before) http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/story.cfm?c_id=2&ObjectID=10393282
(sonic booms) http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/article324316.ece
you still want to tell me the news i get is wishy-washy, false, and 10th-hand?
it's all there. one just has to look deeper and apply some thought. what motive does this media house have for presenting this story? can it be trusted? what can the amount of bias be? think about all these when you next read a story that says israel is justified in carpet-bombing a country into the 50's. or an article from the other end of the spectrum (to be honest..i havent found many of those)
btw..and i forgot, you're under the impression that israel is a democracy. it's not..all citizens there are not equal, and israel defies a lot of other notions about democracy.
Ok now this has developed into a heated debate. Its true in any debate that there is no solution if the other person fails to see ur point.
And what I have realised now is that almost always its a failure. So pages and pages are said and yet no conclusion. Like sanju says, our head breaks but the wall remains intact.
So lets shake hands and put a stop to the topic.
We ll anyway live to see how the plot unravels.
@ansari
Like you pointed out I am not too much of an authority on Israel-Palestine conflict(and have no plans to get into all that). But, I have my doubts about the links you provided. And that’s because you are reading only what you wanted to read. And how much ever you profess looking at "bigger picture", you simply discount the possibility that there is another side of story. Well do you read the stories of those killed in terrorist attacks on Israel side? I don't think so. Read them, and you'll find them no different from what you read about those killed in bombings by Israel, that is what gives you a balanced view.
As far as source of these stories coming from people in Israel, I guess it reflects the vibrancy of democracy there(not sure what you meant when you said "its not a democracy", maybe you have some inside knowledge that others don't have). I am sure I can find similar stories about hizbollah etc (just today they have been accused of human rights violation by Amnesty). Of course no such stories would come from Muslims, unless they wish to live with a Fatwa for rest of their lives.
Finally, I would say that the problem here is that the rest of Arab world is not exactly looking for a solution. Read this(http://www.tnr.com/doc.mhtml?i=w051031&s=karshmiller103105). I am sure you are not exactly looking for world peace when you talk about dropping nuclear bombs and wiping out whole country. Don't you think your claims of fighting for survival and fighting for "right to exist" are falling other way.
Having said all this, I must say that I really don't care about what is happening in Middle East.
Now you say
"And there I disagree again. I think a nation and a people should stand for justice and not self-interest. This is what Islam has to say. Being just is primary, even above your own interests, your family's, friends, nation, etc."
And here I think either you just had bhang, or you are some great mahatma in making. Let me demonstrate it by two simple examples.
First, think of it like this, say a bomb explodes in your locality, at the same time you came to be aware of something happening Iraq that is against "justice". Now, your first thoughts go to your family or for the people of Iraq. Any normal person would first look after his/her family.
Secondly, do you think "injustice" is happening only in palestine, iraq and afganistan. If you are so very concerned person, you must have done similar research about wars in Ivory Coast, Togo, Congo. Have you thought about Afganistan under Taliban before US occupation. Or was that okay???
Come out of this delusion dude, the only reason why you are supporting palestine is Islam. If you had taken that "broad view", you would have realized that it is just another territorial dispute (like many others india-pak, india-china, japan-russia... remember). Somewhere down the line your leaders were able to project this as if islam has come under attack. ditto iraq, afganistan... Somewhere down the line your religion got involved in politics, it started dictating whom to support, what to do, what is terrorism, who is martyr and what not.
What is sad is that even educated people like you are not able to take that objective look. And those who do, have fatwas issued against them by some semi-educated mullah somewhere.
Like Tamanna said, we are getting nowhere, so I guess I won't be posting on this topic any more. You can go ahead and rubbish what I just said. Have the last word.
@Tamanna
After all that we had discussed so far, I guess some concluding words are in order
U know maybe even if we had an endless discussion, there wont be any conclusion. With 'might is right' as the policy both sides will only help destroy the world.
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